Newsweek whines about Phoenix’s Crackdown on Illegal Immigration, which is an entirely legal and appropriate attempt to enforce immigration and labor laws.
The “climate of fear in Arizona” has also caused longtime agricultural workers to leave, says Joe Sigg, director of government relations for the Arizona Farm Bureau, a statewide coalition of farmers and ranchers. In the Yuma area, where agricultural workers earn from $10 to $19 per hour, farmers couldn’t find enough laborers to harvest their lettuce crop, Sigg says. Other farmers have stopped planting labor-intensive vegetables like lettuce in favor of mechanically harvested alfalfa and wheat, and some farmers are considering selling out altogether, he says. “If the agricultural industry can’t get laborers, the land will be converted to other uses and we’ll put our food production at the mercy of other countries,” Sigg predicts.
Well, boo hoo. I guess that means farmers who relied on illegal aliens to pick their crop will be out of luck. Which means that there will be less lettuce in my produce section. Which means that the price will go up. Which means that people will either pay more for it or eat other vegetables. And when they pay more, the farmer will eventually get more, and thus gain the ability to pay a wage that will entice an American worker to do what is undoubtedly a hot, strenuous job, and then the lettuce will eventually be grown and marketed in the appropriate amounts to satisfy public demand.
I do wonder though – why and when did farmers being harvesting alfalfa mechanically? Maybe around the time they started creating mechanical harvesters for citrus fruits? Or trying to find a way to harvest blueberries sans low-paid hand pickers? Is it possible, just maybe, that increased demand for such technology due to the lack of cheap labor could result in an innovation that everyone could benefit from? Like the way it did for wheat. Why, yes, it is. Amazing how those things tend to work out.
Laura:
What a blessing to know that you have a concern not only about agriculture and food prices but also about labor. So does Arizona Farm Bureau.
Let me explain. My office at the Arizona Farm Bureau is right next to Joe Sigg’s and I know the man. He’s the most kind-hearted and concerned individual I know and he’s telling the truth about the $10 to $19 per hour and that our farmers and ranchers that hire from across the border do not hire illegals. I know because Joe and I personally know these farmers and ranchers throughout the state. They adhere to the law and keep all records of those they hire.
First, farmers do not rely on illegal aliens to pick their crops. Even your day laborers from across the border come across with appropriate work authorizations to work in the fields. Any business operating with records can’t afford to because even before the new Arizona employer sanctions law they can be penalized by the federal government. What can (and does happen) is that the documents presented to a potential employer (farming business, construction or hospitality) might be handed false papers that they cannot determine are legal or not. Why? You should know that an employer does not have the legal right to ask the potential employee, “Are you legal?” The employer could get sued. So, the employer must trust that the potential employee handed them legal documents with proper identification.
All this due diligence does not guarantee that they’ve hired someone legal. There is an entire underground market of fraudulent documents. In the meantime, state and the federal government (though states like Arizona are trying harder) are attempting to try to rectify the flow of illegal immigrants that do exist and possess have false papers. And sure, ask the employer to help police the process; but give them the proper tools to do it correctly, for example, with the use of biometric identification methods. Eventually I believe they’ll get this worked out despite all the current bumps in the road. Check out our website at http://www.azfb.org and take note of all the information we provide to help farmers and ranchers obtain the latest information about our current and changing laws and to ensure proper business processes.
What you see and probably gives you the confidence to make a blanket accusation of all businesses hiring legal immigrants (remember there are plenty of legal immigrants eligible to work with the correct papers), are some small businesses that don’t operate their enterprises under the normal system and hire off the street asking for no documents and pay cash for the day labor. But please, don’t wrap the typically farmer and rancher into this package because they just are not in there. In fact, the Arizona Farm Bureau is moving toward supporting a ballot imitative that would stop illegal immigrant work.
Regarding food prices and wages: As stated before, most farm labor harvesting produce is getting paid $10 to $19 per hour already, well above the state’s minimum wage and well above the cost-of-living in Mexico and one of the reasons you have so many crossing the border, legal and illegal. But if you don’t believe me, let me cite some statistics from the 2006 Arizona Agricultural Statistics Bulletin put out by the United States Department of Agriculture. The farm employment and wage rate estimates that USDA puts out annually covers hired workers of family members and other workers who are paid by the farm or ranch operator for working on agricultural jobs for one hour or more during the week. The average is $9.28. Again, well above Arizona’s minimum wage.
Yuma, the largest lettuce producing region of the country during the winter pays well above this because of the competitive nature during harvest time and because of construction jobs. Their averages are $12 to $19. These farmers care about the people that work for them and also provide other benefits like housing and utilities.
Even if farmers paid $20 to $30 an hour, they couldn’t get the local population to work in the fields. They’ve tried. It’s hot, sweaty and hard work.
And regarding food prices, though you indicate you’d pay more, I’m not so sure. Stay a while in Japan where a hefty percentage of their food supply is imported. A friend of mine paid $40 for one cantaloupe while he was in that country for six months during a work-study program. Farmers and ranchers don’t hire immigrants from Mexico to keep wages cheap, they hire immigrants from Mexico because they can’t get you and I to work in the fields. I’ll keep my office job thank you.
Agriculture keeps improving technology so that we can improve the way we produce food. Farmers and ranchers were the first to apply GPS systems to better agriculture practices. In aviation, before Delta became a commercial airline, they did aerial application of fertilizers and more in agriculture. At times agriculture has led the way. Converting to machinery in some of the harvesting has always been the goal to reduce labor costs. Some produce (for example soft skinned vegetables like tomatoes) continue to prevent us from converting to mechanized harvesting. We keep trying though.
I invite you to hang out with me one day and I’ll take you to meet some of these farmers you so randomly incriminate. They are some of the greatest people you’ll ever meet. They love the land, the people and agriculture.
Julie Murphree
Arizona Farm Bureau
Gilbert, Arizona
http://www.azfb.org
Mr. Chertoff? Is that you?
Give me a break, Julie.
That is a bald faced lie. While Joe Sigg may not hire illegal aliens, “farmers” as a group certainly do rely on immigrant, including illegal immigrant, labor. And you know it. If you found my crappy little blog, I find it impossible to believe you’re not aware of this NY Times article which includes this quote:
I’m well aware of the market for fraudulent documents, and of the serious and underreported problem of identity theft by illegal aliens. There’s a reason Tyson, for example, never bothered to question how so many people kept using the same social security number. The fraudulent document market protects employers from the consequences of violating labor laws by giving them plausible deniability. Which is why they were among the group having a conniption fit about the proposed 90 day rule for checking SSNs. And if by “plenty” of legal immigrant farm workers you mean, “2%” then yes, certainly.
Does every farmer willfully hire illegal aliens? Obviously, no. But plenty do; enough to make it worthwhile for people to come. Are they among the greatest people I’ll ever meet? Save it for the tourist brochure, okay? Regarding food prices, you proved my point that the market will adjust for that just as it does for everything else. Your friend evidently thought the canteloupe was worth it, thus rewarding the merchants decision to fly it in.
As to you keeping your office job and declining a lettuce picking career, that’s certainly your prerogative. Perhaps you’ve forgotten the response to John McCain’s suggestion that Americans would not pick lettuce for $50/hour? If you want to get more workers, you can certainly do what happened here in New Orleans and Mississippi after hurricane Katrina – advertise in other cities and provide housing. Make it worth their while and you’ll have more workers than you need. If anything can be fairly stated about Americans, it’s that if you entice us with enough money, we’ll do anything. And at some point technology will develop to the point that fewer workers are needed; the greater the demand, the faster we’ll have that technology. If we can get to the moon and back, we can surely find a way to pick lettuce with a minimum of human intervention.
I agree that not all farmers hire illegals but as a person who grew up on a farm and watched closely what went on in the industry fed and supported me I’d have to say that many farmers do hire illegals. Especially those in labor intensive agriculture, such as lettuce and other hand picked vegetables. My father didn’t hire illegals… shoot he didn’t hire anyone, he had children. We learned to work at a young age and were expected to work for no pay. It taught us work ethic and to appreciate the food we put in our mouths. THAT is really what is failing us in our quest to get Americans to fill jobs… a total lack of work ethic. Americans are becoming very very lazy. What? Dirty my hands? What? Clean up after someone? What? Work for pay? I can sit here and get paid by the government to do nothing, why work…. that is the ethic being taught in our entitlement society today. I don’t think even $50 an hour would get people to pick lettuce, they’d be griping about everything in the book because it would just be too hard and then someone would surely bring a lawsuit about conditions etc. For some stupid reason Americans have equated honest labor that produces REAL sweat to be demeaning and beneath them yet welfare isn’t embarrassing at all… no it’s a “right.” Gag.
I will defend many of those in the agricultural sector as the small family farmer does often put his kids to work and teaches them and expects them to contribute to the family business. It’s not uncommon at all in small towns to see teenagers working summers on a farm and putting out real labor but when you get to the urban areas this is not the common case. Now that I live in a large city (very large so I see a lot of teenagers) I see those that work at fast food but more that spend the summers and weekends hanging out on the street and talking on their cell phones and showing off their pretty wheels, going to the tanning salons and shopping…. god how these kids can shop.
People, parents need to wake up and teach their children how to work, the honesty in work, and the value in work. Before you know it we will be a nation of offices and paper pushers at the mercy of those willing to get their hands dirty.
Mr. Dan Rather? Is that You?
And you trust the NY Times? You give me a break, Laura. Your “crappy little blog” found me. I’ve set Google alerts for Arizona Farm Bureau and as a result your blog popped into my “In” box. Just in case you’re curious.
Plus, I don’t think your blog is crappy … interesting you said that about your work. I actually think you’re covering quite a few good issues. You and I appear to agree on quite a few things. In fact, you’re doing a great job.
And, my earlier points and information do not represent a “bald faced lie.” It’s always an easy accusation. … given especially out of frustration and anger with a broken system. We do have a broken immigration system. You and I do agree on that, I bet.
Again, I invite you to connect with me and I’ll show you some more facts. We can be innocently misinformed. That’s what you’re suffering with on this issue. But, hey, it’s okay.
Jules
Julie, I was harsh. But you can’t say that farmers don’t rely on illegals and expect that to draw no reaction. It simply isn’t true. And I find it hard, no, impossible, to believe that you think it is true. I will, however, moderate my tone because I’m not normally rude and I should not have been. I apologize. And I had to grin at the Dan Rather crack. I had that coming, and it was funny.
As to the blog being crappy… I was being a bit snarky, but I also don’t harbor any illusions that what I say to the 15 – 20k visitors I get a month is going to make a difference in the eternal scheme of things. It’s not.
Pottermom (hey, are you tracking the lawsuit? Unbelievable!) I agree we need to instill a better work ethic in our kids. But I don’t believe Americans won’t work. I’ve seen too many people since Katrina dig in and get their hands dirty. All we need is adequate motivation and we can get the job done.
I accept … and I’m sorry if my words sounded harsh too.
I’m telling you sister, we’ve got to connect.
You and I are sisters in the Lord! I checked out your “About Us.” You and your family are as in love with Jesus as much as I am.
And by the way, you get more monthly hits on your blog than I do … I’m about 5,000 to 6,000 hits per month shorter …
My blog is http://www.juliemurphree.org. But my blog caters to the agriculture community and we’re the smallest demographic in the country … less than 2% in agriculture feeding the other 98% of us. Actually, I cater to anyone that loves the country life.
And I still hold firm on my position: Farmers are not in the business of hiring illegal aliens. They can’t afford to. They may be suspicious that some they hire have false documents, but that’s a different matter when they have no legitimate way, as of today, to completely vet them. My only question, with all earnestness and sincerity, what are you basing your position on? I can get you first-hand, real-life working-in-agriculture accounts of how carefully farmers and ranchers are about trying to handle the hiring paperwork process properly. I’m not basing this position on my own opinion, my heart or my gut.
Does it turn up that a farmer’s hired an illegal alien? Yes. But it was because they were dealing with someone that presented false papers and false I.D.’s Do they sometimes suspect they’re hiring someone with false papers? Sure. But they, by law, cannot say, “You look illegal, are you illegal?” If the potential employee is legal, the farmer/rancher’s at risk for being sued. They’re in a rock and a hard spot. In the meantime, there’s a crop in the field that will rot if they can’t find someone to harvest it.
It’s getting harder and harder to run an agriculture-based business in America. The thing we should worry more about is food security. If regulation and an inability to find labor continues to hamper the process, more and more food will have to be imported. Then in a conflict, when a country at war against us desides to stop their flow of food exports to us and starve us, they’ll never even have to pull a trigger or set off a bomb. Sound alarmist? Maybe. If we love imported oil, we’re really going to love food imports. Yes, it could get that crazy.
Anyway, enjoying the dialogue …
Mega Ditto with Pottermom too. On the work ethic, we might not even need to hire from abroad if we had a better work ethic in our country.
Laura…. yes, I’m following the lawsuit. I find it totally unbelievable!
I’m sure that Americans can work, I just find it totally sad that it needs money to jump start and maintain it. I mean ethics are ethics whether money is involved or not. People think that it’s all about them. They think the company owes them money rather than they owe the company work. They go hand in hand but no work in my book = no money. I have a son-in-law who is here legally from Russia (waiting four years for a green card… don’t get me started on illegal immigration OR the immigration process… you would get an earful and not a calm one either….) and he works for very little. He has had to learn a language (he did not speak any English four years ago) and customs and pretty much everything from the ground up. None of his schooling (tech school) is accepted here and he is relegated to labor jobs (although he recently got his CDL so he can drive a truck for his employer now). He has put up with garbage in some quarters, not only from employers but from our own government yet he gives his all for work. He works hard and he works diligently, money is not what motivates him, what motivates him is a sense of pride, inner value, knowing he is doing as he should… the job he is hired for. On the other side are some of his co-workers who have the attitude that “they don’t pay me enough for this job” and they slack off, they steal from the company, they cause problems. Sure money is an issue in that our son-in-law won’t work for free, but he won’t refuse to work if big bucks aren’t coming his way. He works the hardest he can for the best pay he can get. Of course to me the very visible difference between he and his co-workers he describes is that our son-in-law is a Christian and his co-workers (as far as I know) do not claim to be. So perhaps ethics, including work ethic is something from God…? Which could lead to a whole bring God back into the public realm discussion which may not be a profitable road to travel.
Anyway, yes Americans can work but is it really work ethic when it is dependent upon money? I have been impressed with the folks rebuilding after Katrina. They are doing this not for money. They do this because it is their life, it is their dream, it is just part of their being. I applaud all the folks working so hard and rebuilding lives. Realizing I may take flack for this, I also have seen some of the worst in the entitlement mentality come out in some people because of Katrina. I live in Houston and the difference between those willing to work to regain their lives and those wanting the government to give it all to them free is startling. Some have HUGE work ethic and great values. Others have lived on the dole so long they do not even know how to work anymore but consider government aid an entitlement. And this is not just a Katrina situation, not isolated to any one segment of society, it is creeping into all of America. I am an American so GIVE IT TO ME FREE is what I hear more and more. So how do you overcome generations of that attitude? I heartily applaud those working to rebuild, to build new, to build better lives but I am greatly saddened by those that sit back and want that which they are not willing to work for. I don’t know how to help them overcome when they don’t want to overcome. Any answers?
Julie, My father had a small cow/calf operation in the mountains of Colorado. A great life and a great way to grow up. I wish more people understood what it’s like to go home from school and work the hay field every day instead of drag main… that teaches work ethic. lol Unfortunately it isn’t profitable to be in agriculture these days unless you are a large corporation. Agriculture is being taken over by large corporations…. and then you have the “evil” giants preying on the business (that’s a whole different post/story/reply lol). yes, I admit it, I am an opinionated stubborn independent minded country folk in an urban setting. As a Christian you might be interested in the work of Gretchen and Gene Tate… they are missionaries that do agricultural development in developing nations. Amazing stuff. They were the agricultural directors of Mercy Ships for about 20 years and have just started their own organization.
Okay, sorry for taking over comment section. And I don’t expect anyone to ever agree with me. After 30 years of marriage I’m used to disagreements….. lol
And both of you get WAY more visitors to your blog than I do, I average about 25 a day? Of course I pretty much put up pictures of my grandkids with an occassional political rant thrown in….. that limits interest.
A fair question, and on reading back over these comments I wonder if we aren’t talking past each other to some extent. I’m saying that farmers rely on (regularly use) illegal immigrant labor. This is well established by a variety of sources, but the NY Times article I linked is representative. (I do gripe about the MSM in many respects; they are as agenda driven and prone to lie as bloggers. But they also provide a lot of good information; we just have to read carefully between the lines and try to account for the spin.)
You’re saying that they’re not doing so deliberately - it’s not part of their business plan, and that given legal constraints they’re doing the best they can to comply with the law. Our positions really aren’t that far apart.
Currently the farmers are restricted – due to market conditions – to only pay, say, $19 an hour which seems to be on the high side. Given the labor conditions – the work is necessarily seasonal and it’s very hard – that’s simply not enough for an American to want to do the job. (And you and Pottermom are correct in that many young people think they’re above such things; that is also a real problem.)
The thing is that when you factor in the actual cost of the labor – the social services aspects; higher school expenses due to ESL,etc, unreimbursed ER expenses – even that $19 an hour is subsidized labor. Any taxes that illegals pay really don’t cover it. FAIR and other organizations have good breakdowns on that kind of thing. We’re already paying a lot more than it looks like for that cheap lettuce; it’s just that the costs are hidden and spread out to everyone whether they eat lettuce or not.
So due to official and unofficial government subsidies, the cost of produce has been kept artificially low. The innovation we would normally solve this kind of problem with hasn’t really been brought to bear because the current situation is fairly comfortable for everyone.
I can go back and dig links up to support specifics in this argument later if you like but I wanted to just put it out there for now because I’ll be tied up the rest of the day. And it’s mostly common sense in any event.
Potential solutions might include – a requirement for people on welfare to spend two weeks or a month harvesting. (Complicated to implement, but possible.)
Easier – college scholarships at state schools (and obviously adjust the school schedule to accommodate it.) I think if we gave college students the opportunity for free in state tuition for full time study and a decent GPA in exchange for a few weeks of farming each semester, you’d have a lot of takers. A six hour work day * $50 = 1800/week for a six day work week times what, three weeks of harvesting? (a wild guess, correct me, please) would be $5400, which is in the range of what schools around here charge for in state tuition. Most are already on mom and dad’s insurance, and they don’t have kids to put in school, so you save a bundle on social services expenses that way. The farmer pays $20 and the government applies the rest to tuition. Still government subsidized, but shifted around so that the money stays in country and our own citizens benefit. If performance is an issue, pay by the pound instead of by the hour.
Scholarships aside, if you offer a college student a chance to make $5k in less than a month, they’d take it. As to whether they will work hard – they will. They’ve been coming here, gutting houses and rebuilding them – hot, miserable, hard work – and that was for free. Most will do pretty much anything for a week no matter how miserable it is.
Scholarships….. ah, but how to finance them? More taxes surely because the state of NM tried free tuition to incoming freshman straight from high school all financed by the lottery (let’s get them to gamble their way to college plan)…. and they were overwhelmed after two years to the point that they could no longer afford to offer the scholarships as they promised. There’s never something for nothing and scholarship money will have to come from somewhere.
Subsidies….. let supply and demand set the price, not the government, but then my background is beef, which would make my position on that understandable. And while we’re out of it… why the heck are food products allowed on the futures market?
pottermom – ideally businesses would just pay the wage needed to get an American to do the job… failing that, (assuming that the continued exodus of illegals from states that enforce the law create a critical labor shortage) the state can redirect the money they used to spend on said illegal aliens to the scholarship program. Not an ideal solution, because I agree with you; I’d rather let the free market just adjust and if we have to pay $6 for a head of lettuce, then that’s what we pay. Businesses could get creative and partner with universities, also – there’s a lot of ways to skin this cat and keep the money in the United States, and we’ll find them when the pressure to do so is adequate.